This or That?

[lehcyfer]

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the wooden one would be much more rigid, especially on lengths of 30cm we speak about - the paper would bend at pressure and stay bent, while bent wood springs back to it's earlier form.

As for paper purism - paper is made from wood
And shish kebab sticks are just as cheap as paper, so no big financial difference here too.

I'd like to have the ability to adjust the height continuously, but it's too much of a hassle. The answer can be for example additional 10cm sticks ended with paper rolled cylinders:

| 5cm         5cm
|          ====   ||
}-----       -----||
|          ====   \|
|

Normally the stick attached to the base would have 5cm length, and the stick attached to the ship would have 5cm too, but would end with paper rolled cylinder, like above.

There would be two additional 10cm sticks with paper cylinders on one end - when you want to make the ship longer you would just get the stick with ship out, put the middle stick in, and put the stick with ship back in.

| 5cm        10cm       5cm
|       ====         ====   ||
}-----    ----------   -----||
|       ====         ====   \|
|

|           20cm
|        ====      ====   ||
}-------------------------||
|        ====      ====   \|
|

[lehcyfer]

What would be wonderful is an ability to freely rotate the ships on the end of the stick - they would for example be able to hide behind armor - for example those tribolite resembling ships would show their top thick armour hiding their vulnerable bottom from enemy fire - as they have armament on the bottom it would mean that they would be unable to fire at the ship they take cover from, but could take more hits than otherwise.

I envision some kind of hip-joint resembling - moveable slot, allowing the ship to tilt in any direction up to 90 degrees. The ship would have the stick going through the body and sticking out from the bottom as well as from the top - to simulate it turning upside down you would take the ship off the base sticks, flip it on the backside and insert the top stick into the moveable slot.

As for rotation costs - tilting without changing direction of movement would be free, changing directional vector would cost movement just like we've implemented for 2D turns.

The bases would be black circles, or possibly tripod legs - this way ship's would be able to move close to and almost below the other ships without interfering with their bases.

The hexagonal bases we have now would become cards with info for each single ship, used as a template for determining turn cost.

It is doable and would represent a quantum leap in Miniature Space Battle Games - something that just might make this game a hit.

Of course then we'd have to figure out how to shrink the sticks continuously, not just to fixed lengths.

Imagine the impact we'd make on the world of gamers if we pulled that off!

And one more thing, Chris - you could eventually outsource production and shipment of those tripod shrinkable rotatable bases (plastic, metal, whatever) and sell them along the downloadable models on Ecardmodels shop to those who would prefer to have ready bases instead doing them themselves.

[Blackronin]

Dear friends:

When I first saw Chris project and decided to join I did it because I found very interesting the idea of a all paper miniature game, where all the playing community could offer models and ideas, as opposed to other mini games (plastic or lead) where it's much more difficult to create models that everybody can use, you can scratch build, but very hardly will you be able to share the models.

When I decided that I would give a boost to the game design I sat and wrote in a post it the main lines that I thought were the best for this game and that I already shared somewhere else in this discussion. The Credo I chose was:

1. A modular game where we can add, expansions, races and units.

2. A game that can be played in a campaign, using the full system of one strategic game and 3 tactical games or a single skirmish of any one of the 3 games. (A player might like space games but not ground combat games, so he can focus only in one of them.)

3. A game that is always growing and evolving but without losing the SIMPLE aspects of it.

4. A game where players can build and show their paper skills with the community. In effect, a game where players can create races, units and rules and if these are good, Ecardmodels will add these creations to the Universe, properly edited so that game keep its balance.

This was my credo from the beginning and though, my fellow development team cried out "Too complex!!" or "Too simple!!" I did always refereed to these guidelines when a new change was needed.

About 3D rules, I think that it's a good idea if, the rules are for the Advanced Rules or for a 3D Expansion and don't take 3 times the time to play a game.

The base with the turning and basic information is a must. It defines the game, it's easy to play and and the info is in the ship. Firing arcs, Speed, Agility, Defense and number of weapons to fire. Any new player can start playing alone 15 minutes after the game started.

As a side note: I do like te idea of doing a fast playable altitude change rules. But we must assess all our goals.

1. In all the games I played that had the 3D option but weren't 3D at base, I tried the 3D option with other players just to find out that it had no real reason to exist (tactically there were no real advantages) and it just took so much more time.

2. The only miniature games and boardgames that I play with 3D rules are aerial games from WW1 and WW2. Gravity, air pressure and weak engines do really give different aspects to the game and there a tactical reason to go up and down. If you want to know more about this try: Air Force (Avalon Hill) as a heavy 3D game where the airplane characteristics do really change in different altitudes and diving and climbing are serious matters and Blue Max (you can download Eagle Canvas freely from INTERNET), where altitude is important to fire and speed up and down. There are others of course, many really, but these I know very well.

In space, going up and down is just a matter of fancy. You don't have to work against gravity any more than when you turn left or right, so... what are the reasons for a 3D game? We find these and we make the rules.

[lehcyfer]

I understand your position, and assure you that I'm all for the fast, easy, involving game.
If we can make the 3D version fast and easy then I'm all for it - otherwise lets forget it or make it an advanced expansion.

As for your worries:

- Black bases: When the ship is 30cm or more above the battletop there's not much info you can gain from the base - especially that the distances will be measured in 3d, not flat, and ship itself will be able to tilt, making info on base incorrect - When base becomes info card for the ship and a template you can check the turning angles in the air, the space battlefield becomes more realistic with the black bases blending into the black board covered with speckles of stars. There still can be names of ships on the bases.

- No advantages of 3D: I just have given one advantage for the tribolite like ships which would have thick armour on hulltop and vulnerable bottom with weapon pods - tilting maneouvers with aim of using ability to cover from incoming fire from enemy ships would be an epitome of tactical game. If we incorporate such directional modifiers, the advantages will be palpable.

- turning in space is free: ok., but remember that the model position shows his vector of movement - the arrow can rotate freely, but changing it's vector of movement changes it's direction, and that involves using engines to change the trajectory - The turning cost would be established by using the same base template we use, but tilted respectively in accordance with the change of course the ship is making.

The main thing is - when the setting looks real, and the movement involves your imagination, it's almost like you're flying with those ships, you can fall into the game with your hat and boots on. And if we achieve this, it will be monumental.

Just imagine how it would rock if we made it work!

[Blackronin]

Trilobite rule: A good one, even to play in the 2D game. Special ability: Hard Shell - During every turn, after all ships have moved, this ship can choose an enemy ship that is in this ship port or starboard arc. All fire from that ship will be at Defense 7. This ship cannot fire back against that ship, representing this ship banking its Hard Shell toward the enemy ship.

Let's save this rule for the extra ships, OK?

About the 3D rules, show me monumental and I'll go with it. It must be fast, easy to learn, no Pythagoras square roots attached or "see table, 2.3 for moving in altitude x" and miniature mechanics cannot exist just for the sake of aesthetics.

[lehcyfer]

Pythagoras is not needed when you have your rule-stick in hand The thing is - once you establish the ending point there has to be a way of marking it in the air - for example by a spare base with stick ending in the point.

[Lex]

Save the 3D rule for the future, after the team have some experience for developing 2D... at least. I suggest finishing the three phases of the game first, before moving on to expanding and improving the rules.

PS, I had no idea that the height is going to be 30cm... well I'm not saying that I'm a paper purist, but people like me can't really get hold of a suitable stick of wood (or any specific modeling material except paper) that easily, if you don't happen to have a hobby supply shop nearby...

[lehcyfer]

Last month I bought a bundle of 20 sticks 0,5cm thick, ~40cm long for 5PLN (Less than 1 british pound) in TESCO hipermarket - you're in UK, Lex, right? TESCO is based in UK so I guess you have one nearby...

And you may look at garden supplies - they should have such sticks to help flowers grow straight.

As for 2D rules before 3D you're absolutely right. Meanwhile I'll keep working in the background with the adjustable bases.

[Lex]

I'll check Tesco... but chances are I'll only find flowers here :D Will go look

[ThunderChild]

How about looking to the 3D aspect in just game/phase2? that seems to be the only game where varying heights will shine through.