Clarity regarding pirates...

[bigbenn]

Hi Christine,
you will find you will go around and around on this one and still not come up with an answer. Ultimately, it comes down to you and what you think is right from wrong, how deep your pockets are and if you see something for free, whether you take it or leave it and go without.
I think of piracy of buying someone else's work and then publishing that work for free on the internet for everyone with an interest to freely download.
The people downloading freely are in effect stealing what the first pirate has stolen and people who use peer to peer sharing via Limewire and other similar sharing technologies, invariably end up being prosecuted for Piracy or for downloading pirated stuff, or illegal porn in sting operations set up by the Police, or the music industry Police, because there is no way that anyone can tell where the computer they are downloading from is, or who is running it and each connection to that computer leaves a footprint which it is easy to access and for the Police to find out who "you" are and pursue you for personal $'s fines punishment, or imprisonment for downloading kiddie porn, for example. The download is proof in itself.
A simple way of determining the range of piracy on the internet is to type Warez in Google, hit return and go from there.
90% of the stuff available for download on the internet is pirated: movies, music, e.books and so on, yet it seems to me that this same pirated stuff drives the internet and everyone who downloads and world wide, millions upon millions do and they seem to keep other internet providers and shops which sell blank DVD's & CD's and other storage hardware, the sale of computers, printers and ink, software and so many other supporting industries, in business.
At the coal face, it seems to me that there are loads of people who can afford to buy whatever they download and always will do so and another large group of people who will take whatever they can for their own use, because they can't afford to pay for it, as they are poor and just trying to illuminate their lives a bit, with things which would otherwise be denied to them.
Do you ever go shopping and see clothes you would like to buy but don't because you can't afford them, yet you see other people shelling out hundred's of $ without even seeming to notice? Same with the internet.
Whichever type of person you are, it comes down to your feelings of right and wrong and what you will do to achieve the creature comforts you want for yourself to make your own life worthwhile.
Take the movie Avatar for example. The biggest, highest grossing movie of all time, yet it is freely available for download on the internet for other people to download and see (In English). So those who paid to watch it in a movie theater will have done so and those who don't, will download the movie instead, probably because they can't afford to do otherwise, anyway. Yet still that movie made millions.
BigBenn

[altomentis]

Thank you all for helping me out. I just want to make sure I don't refer you to a pirate because I don't know what I am doing. I belong to the google paper models group and have called instances of piracy to the attention of the owners of those models. There are so many excellent free models and relatively inexpensive ones available that I see no reason to steal or pirate any. I'll never build all the ones I want to build as it is.

So, if I have any questions I will ask a moderator/admin. I appreciate your views.

Thanks again, Christine

[Kaz]

I agree with rickstef on the sharing business
If imhavingalaughaswell shares an apple with me, he only has half an apple, if he decides to share $100 with me, he only has $50. If he shares a motorcycle with me, well, he still has a complete bike, but he only has use of it for 12 hours a day.. if he shares a model with me, how come we both have a complete model, 24 hours a day. I think the word piracy should be used. or to put it in its correct and blunt form, theft.

Then again I could be wrong

As for 'do what you think is right' brigade, there is a whole world of difference between taking some blackberries from a bush in a public park, to raiding an orchard to sell the 'fruits of labour' on a market stall. I would say do what you KNOW is right

[doctormax]

Is buying from a chairty shop an act of piracy? I ask since I have over the years bought five kits in a charity shop and it does have on these kits not for resale. I presume some people bought the kit at a shop while on holiday and gave it as a present to someone who thought "can't be bothered building this and end up giving them to charity shops to clear them out which is a hell lot better than putting them in the green bin. I would hate to think that the five kits i bought could have been mangled and pulped to print the Daily Mail. Makes me hope that there is lots of other kits Irish holiday makers bought out there in charity shops just waiting for me

[cMags]

Normally I just like to sit and watch these threads, but I wanted to share a point on this one.

It seems to me that we're dealing with two separate issues: What constitutes piracy/stealing/general deviousness regarding our hobby (which often spills over into discussion over other media forms), and what is allowed on PaperModelers.com.

The latter is cut and dry. If the kit is a pubished/pre-printed kit and you want to share your build of a scanned copy, we are asked to share a photo of the cover as "proof" that you own the original. This is more about protecting the forum against possible legal action than policing the members on the finer points of morality, and is a simple cut-and-glu... er -dry rule, so just follow it. Regarding the original question, it's unfortunate that only digital copies of the older kits exist nowadays, but rather than making an exception here and there for things like that, PM must just stick to their guns and not allow it here, again to protect the forum.

Regarding those finer points of morality, there are different laws in different countries and we all have to make our own decision on what's allowed. But if you're needing to distort the description of your actions to fit into some type of loophole to slide into a "possibly legal" category then it's probably not "right".

Simply put, if the designer has made the model available for purchase, either printed or digital, then you must purchase the model you build, and so must your friends, family, or anyone else you would want to build one as well. The law in the US allows for copies for "personal use and backup purposes" only (the same applies for media like CDs/DVDs). Do what you want with the kit you purchased, scan it, upscale, downscale, recolor, build a fleet of them etc, it's all personal use. On PM though, we are just asked to show the original kit, and keep the original kit (just like with a CD - yes you can be subpoenaed to bring your original CDs to court if you are caught by the FBI with a large digital music collection if they suspect illegal downloads).

As far as buying from sources other than the seller and authorized distributors (such as ebay, personal sales on the forum, and charity stores), use your best judgment. There's no way to know if the seller copied the model, built the copy, then sold the original. If you know, then don't buy, otherwise, we're not going to chastise you for good intentions. I think keeping original kits out of the recycle bin is great.

If you disagree with each person having to purchase each model they build, and insist on printing out copies and giving them to all your friends, well then we're on an internet forum spread out around the world, logging in with anonymity, so we can't do anything about it. Just don't tell us about it here, because it's simply not allowed. Follow the rules and we'll all get along just fine.

[Squirrel]

well said.

[Ron40]

cmags,
I strongly disagree with your statement that you are allowed
to scan it, upscale, downscale, recolor, build a fleet of them. The
law as I understand it says you are allowed to make a copy for
backup purposes. That means one copy and that does not mean
you can do all the things you mentioned with its content..Ron

[airdave]

The law in the US allows for copies for "personal use and backup purposes" only (the same applies for media like CDs/DVDs). Do what you want with the kit you purchased, scan it, upscale, downscale, recolor, build a fleet of them etc, it's all personal use

Same here in Canada...personal use, do what you want!...I agree 100%!

just like with a CD - yes you can be subpoenaed to bring your original CDs to court if you are caught by the FBI with a large digital music collection if they suspect illegal downloads

however, this is easily argued using the first rule: "allowed for backup use".
...the only reason to "back up" is because of fear of loss.
So to allow backups in case of loss, forces the acceptance of loss if so declared.

[GreMir]

Ron,
This was discussed already is several threads.
As long as you own original model, you can copy it for personal use and recolor, resize or do with it whatever your heart desire.
If you sell the original and keep the copy, you are a pirate. If you keep the original and sell/ offer for free copy of the model, you are a pirate, unless of course you obtained permission from the designer to do so.

You, as an owner of the rights to B-17 design can set any rules you want, but it will be strictly for this one model, not for all the models out there.

[Ron40]

Michael,
I agree with what you say. The rules should be set by the
owner. It is a very sticky situation. The argument is basically
that if a modeler decides to build a model that he has changed
the content (Livery) and gives that model to another person
it is no longer considered for his personal use. It is no longer
in his possession......Ron