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  #21  
Old 08-15-2012, 10:55 AM
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Thanks David and welcome to this thread.
Guys, I think we can go back to modeling. And yes, David will share more of his work at my site.
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  #22  
Old 08-15-2012, 11:07 AM
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Thank you very much to Yoannc, David and Alfonso to make Hermes available!
This is new stuff for some esa concept models (Hermes with the free flying lab!?) that i want to build someday.

regards spacewalker
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  #23  
Old 08-15-2012, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davbro01 View Post
To Whom It May Concern,

Michael K. has done a magnificent job in creating the ALP and I would simply be "reinventing the wheel" if I were to attempt to recreate his design. More importantly, his ALP is far too complex a design to provide to school students (unless they are teenagers in high school). Since the ALP could not (or should not) be attempted by children in the classroom, I have abstained from attempting to contact Michael K. and I have not created my own [simplified] ALP.

......

Yours sincerely,
David Brown.
Thank you David for this compliment! It's my creation and also downloadable here in the download section.
If you want to take this for your project- no problem.
The only to do is to identify my copyright....

and to change the german flag on the Ariane.....
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  #24  
Old 08-15-2012, 02:59 PM
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David, welcome to the forum. And of course thanks for the busload of new rockets you came with, the models look good, especially the Hermes, which is, as you said, the only one around is and indeed it is a good addition!
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  #25  
Old 08-15-2012, 09:01 PM
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David, another hearty welcome to the forum. Excellent work you're doing (in the classroom & the modeling/design). Interesting point on instructions from Ton. His are the gold-standard it seems, though I usually forget to snap pictures of each assembly stage ...

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  #26  
Old 08-15-2012, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davbro01 View Post
To Whom It May Concern,

I am responsible for the design and creation of the Ariane V / Hermes models that are currently available on Alfonso X Moreno's website. Approximately six months ago, I sent an email to Ton Noteboom requesting his permission to modify and update his Ariane V design. His original design was based on the Ariane V that was originally flown in 1996 - and the European Space Agency had made significant modifications and improvements since that time (specifically, the creation of the new upper stages). I wanted to create a paper model of the current (and near-future) versions of the Ariane V for any potential hobbyists and/or teachers.

I originally took Ton Noteboom's model, reverse engineered the parts (so as to accurately get his measurements) and then recreated the Ariane V in my own way - reducing the number of parts wherever possible and simplifying the design so that children (students) could attempt to build it in a classroom. My version of the Ariane V was deliberately designed so that it could be built with either glue or with 'sticky-tape'... enabling children, who have a limited degree of patience, to be able to construct it within only 2 or 3 hours; i.e. in only 2 or 3 one-hour classroom lessons.

Obviously, since I work as a teacher and teaching will be the underlying motivation for the creation of any future models, all of my near-future designs will be engineered as "binary" models; i.e. capable of assembly via glue [by adults] or sticky-tape [by children].

Also, the request that I made to Ton Noteboom (asking if I could modify his design) was not a way of being lazy and trying to "punk out" someone's pre-existing design... it was a deliberate act that was done so that my design could be integrated with other modeller's "enhancements and additions" - I am, of course, referring to the Ariane V Launch Platform (ALP), designed by Michael K., that is currently available from Johnathan Leslie's website.

The image of the ALP can be found at: http://jleslie48.com/ariane_platform/alp.jpg
... with the model on the web address: The Lower Hudson Valley Paper Model E-Gift Shop - Photo Gallery - Russian and European Spacecraft

This is also the reason why the Ariane V is available from Alfonso's website... but not the launch platform. Michael K. has done a magnificent job in creating the ALP and I would simply be "reinventing the wheel" if I were to attempt to recreate his design. More importantly, his ALP is far too complex a design to provide to school students (unless they are teenagers in high school). Since the ALP could not (or should not) be attempted by children in the classroom, I have abstained from attempting to contact Michael K. and I have not created my own [simplified] ALP.

With regards to the Hermes model... a few months ago, I managed to contact Yoannc (via email) and he was gracious enough to provide his initial design (parts) for the Hermes. Yoannc attempted the Hermes several years ago but never fully completed his original design - and as a result of this, the Hermes has not been available to the wider paper-modelling community. Realising what was needed to the done... I then did the same thing with his Hermes that I did with Ton's Ariane V; i.e. I simplified it.

I took his design, reverse engineered the parts, simplified the design by amalgamating and re-connecting the parts (this is most obvious when you look at the single-part that is the entire wing/tail structure) and then scaled the entire model to match the 1:96 scale of Ton's original Ariane V. This Hermes model is (to the best of my knowledge) the only Hermes paper model that is currently available on the internet - anywhere in the world... a real first for myself and Alfonso!

When I completed the final documents (PDFs), I sent a copy of the 1:96 scale parts sheets and the manuals to Ton for his opinion and approval. He replied that everything was OK... but he stated that the manuals should be created in a format that is more like his own; i.e. only visual descriptions (photos only) and without any written instructions underneath each photograph. Ton stated (in his email) that there are a multitude of international paper modellers who neither speak nor read English (many of his friends living in Europe). Assembly Manuals (in his opinion) need to be primarily visually-based forms of instruction - with no written text whatsoever. This is in direct contrast to Alfonso's Manuals which have text to clarify what is shown in the photographs.

I have already finished the 6-metre diameter "Ariane VI"... a near-future design which has been described in various engineering and technical documents published by ESA in the mid-2000s. This Ariane-VI is described (in the technical literature) as having 6 SRBs, 1 Vulcain main engine, and 2 Vinci upper-stage engines... with a payload capacity of 50-tonnes to low Earth orbit (see the accompanying images). The ESA documents describe how this booster is to be used in manned flights to the moon and for the creation of an independent ESA space station.

Although I have not yet had the opportunity to create them... it is my intention to design and create the reusable liquid rocket boosters (LRBs) for the Ariane V. These LRBs will be based on the fully automated flyback boosters that have been under study by the European Space Agency for the last decade. Although my SRBs allow the original Ariane V model to be placed on Michael K.'s launch platform, the design (and increased diameter) of these new LRBs will prevent the Ariane V and Michael's creation from being integrated.

Lastly, I have spent several weeks in the creation of the world's first paper model of Gomersall's Single Stage to Orbit (SSTO) design from the early 1970s. Edward Gomersall was an engineer working in NASA during the Apollo Programme. In 1970, he published an internal NASA technical document which presented an alternative design for NASA's future space shuttle. His design consisted of an SSTO which could also have been used as a launch vehicle for Apollo lunar missions (via the use of as many as 12 strap-on Titan III solid rocket boosters). After the release of his technical report, he was "reassigned" to another department within NASA (where he would be unable to give any input towards the design of the Space Shuttle) and his report was suppressed for the next two decades... collecting dust on the shelves of the NASA archives. My model, built in the 1:96 scale so as to utilise Ton Noteboom's Apollo/Saturn V model, is to be a close approximation of his design - see the accompanying illustration.

If anyone has any queries regarding the Ariane V and/or Ariane VI, the new upper stages for the Ariane, the Hermes spaceplane, the new LRBs... or even Gomersall's SSTO, please feel free to send an email to this forum. I will attempt to answer any questions that you may have...

Yours sincerely,
David Brown.
Those are REALLY cool... do you have any links to the reports you cited or to the Ariane VI design stuff you cited??

Thanks! OL JR
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  #27  
Old 08-16-2012, 01:31 AM
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Dear Luke Straw-walker

Over the last decade, I have been diligently collecting technical reports on various aspects of space technology. Last year, I discovered a web-page from ESA which had numerous PDF documents that were presented as a "Space Conference" in the year 2009.

The web-page address to download the various technical reports/presentations from ESA is as follows:

ESA - European Interests in Space Exploration - Final architecture review presentations

The quantity of documentation is considerable... and it is all for free. This reports give details on:
  • The Ariane VI (a 50-tonne booster capable of performing manned lunar missions - and which will also have a formidable economic capability in relation to communications satellite launch services; i.e. it will directly compete with SpaceX's Falcon 9-Heavy booster for international market-share of the space launch industry).
  • Manned lunar spacecraft (a modern ESA-version of the Apollo Lunar lander - which could be launched via the Ariane VI).
  • Pressurised lunar rovers.
  • Initial lunar habitats (i.e. a small, single-module, lunar outpost).
  • Low Earth Orbit space station design (an independent ESA space station - built from modules that are derived from those used on the current ISS).
  • Manned orbital spacecraft (the ESA version of the NASA Apollo command/service module).
  • Modular propulsion stages (which can be docked together in low Earth orbit to incrementally build a large orbital booster - with which to launch spacecraft towards the Moon and/or Mars).
One curious discovery that I made while reading these reports... ESA does not have to spend any money on the design and engineering of new rocket engines to create the Ariane VI. The Ariane VI will use exactly the same engines as the Ariane V - only the combination of engines will be different.

Ariane V has...
  • 2 solid rocket boosters,
  • 1 Vulcain engine (main engine), and
  • 1 Vinci engine (on the upper stage).
Ariane VI will have...
  • 6 solid rocket boosters,
  • 1 Vulcain engine (main engine), and
  • 2 Vinci engines (on the upper stage).
Have a look at the various diagrams in the PDF reports and you will see just how little money needs to be spent on research for ESA to gain access to a "new" 50-tonne booster.

On the subject of Gommersal's SSTO... regrettably, I had to purchase this document (PDF) from Scott Lowther's website "www.up-ship.com" and as a consequence of this, there is the question of copyright ownership of the materials in this report. I cannot supply this report to you (for free) but you can purchase your own copy from Scott's web-site for a nominal fee (in some cases, a download only costs about $5.00).

I hope that you find the ESA documents as enjoyable as I have...

Yours sincerely,
David Brown.
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  #28  
Old 08-16-2012, 01:52 AM
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Hi David, thanks for that link! Nice pdf's indeed. It shows you can do a lot with just improving established equipment instead of wanting to re-invent the wheel. If only they would be realized one day, but I seriously doubt this.

The Gommersall drawings remind me a lot of Philip Bono's work at Douglas in the late 60's / early 70's. It looks like all of these big weird ships like Rombus, Ithacus and Pegasus. according to that last drawing, the Gomersall ship also seem to have an aerospike engine system. Is that correct? I think it was a really popular item in those days.
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  #29  
Old 08-16-2012, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davbro01 View Post
This reports give details on:
  • The Ariane VI (a 50-tonne booster capable of performing manned lunar missions - and which will also have a formidable economic capability in relation to communications satellite launch services; i.e. it will directly compete with SpaceX's Falcon 9-Heavy booster for international market-share of the space launch industry).
<snip>


Ariane V has...
  • 2 solid rocket boosters,
  • 1 Vulcain engine (main engine), and
  • 1 Vinci engine (on the upper stage).
Ariane VI will have...
  • 6 solid rocket boosters,
  • 1 Vulcain engine (main engine), and
  • 2 Vinci engines (on the upper stage).
Have a look at the various diagrams in the PDF reports and you will see just how little money needs to be spent on research for ESA to gain access to a "new" 50-tonne booster.
Sorry to disappoint you, but that is NOT Ariane VI. It was a 2009 proposal from Astrium for a 50 MT launcher. Nothing less, and nothing more: just a proposal. And many proposals have been made over the years for future European launchers.

Currently, no such thing as an Ariane VI is under development. There is however the Future Launcher Preparatory Programme (FLPP). That programme will identify key design-requirements for ESA's Next Generation Launcher (NGL). The NGL programme will ultimately result in something that can be referred to as Ariane VI.

The first study contracts for NGL have been awarded, the main one going to Astrium. But rest assured, the 2009 Astrium proposal for a 50 MT monster-rocket won't show up in the upcoming Astrium study report. The requirements for NGL have no need for an Ariane-5 derived very-heavy launcher.
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  #30  
Old 08-19-2012, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davbro01 View Post
Dear Luke Straw-walker

Over the last decade, I have been diligently collecting technical reports on various aspects of space technology. Last year, I discovered a web-page from ESA which had numerous PDF documents that were presented as a "Space Conference" in the year 2009.

The web-page address to download the various technical reports/presentations from ESA is as follows:

ESA - European Interests in Space Exploration - Final architecture review presentations

The quantity of documentation is considerable... and it is all for free. This reports give details on:
  • The Ariane VI (a 50-tonne booster capable of performing manned lunar missions - and which will also have a formidable economic capability in relation to communications satellite launch services; i.e. it will directly compete with SpaceX's Falcon 9-Heavy booster for international market-share of the space launch industry).
  • Manned lunar spacecraft (a modern ESA-version of the Apollo Lunar lander - which could be launched via the Ariane VI).
  • Pressurised lunar rovers.
  • Initial lunar habitats (i.e. a small, single-module, lunar outpost).
  • Low Earth Orbit space station design (an independent ESA space station - built from modules that are derived from those used on the current ISS).
  • Manned orbital spacecraft (the ESA version of the NASA Apollo command/service module).
  • Modular propulsion stages (which can be docked together in low Earth orbit to incrementally build a large orbital booster - with which to launch spacecraft towards the Moon and/or Mars).
One curious discovery that I made while reading these reports... ESA does not have to spend any money on the design and engineering of new rocket engines to create the Ariane VI. The Ariane VI will use exactly the same engines as the Ariane V - only the combination of engines will be different.

Ariane V has...
  • 2 solid rocket boosters,
  • 1 Vulcain engine (main engine), and
  • 1 Vinci engine (on the upper stage).
Ariane VI will have...
  • 6 solid rocket boosters,
  • 1 Vulcain engine (main engine), and
  • 2 Vinci engines (on the upper stage).
Have a look at the various diagrams in the PDF reports and you will see just how little money needs to be spent on research for ESA to gain access to a "new" 50-tonne booster.

On the subject of Gommersal's SSTO... regrettably, I had to purchase this document (PDF) from Scott Lowther's website "www.up-ship.com" and as a consequence of this, there is the question of copyright ownership of the materials in this report. I cannot supply this report to you (for free) but you can purchase your own copy from Scott's web-site for a nominal fee (in some cases, a download only costs about $5.00).

I hope that you find the ESA documents as enjoyable as I have...

Yours sincerely,
David Brown.
Thank you! Those are terrific resources! I'm primarily into space history and "alternate" space history had different choices been made, and also into flying model rockets, so I really enjoy this sort of thing...

I understand about the other report... upship has some good stuff... I've been wanting to download thier report on the Saturn I-D booster that would have turned the S-IC first stage of Saturn V into a stage and a half to orbit vehicle like Atlas 1.

Thanks again! OL JR
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