Santa Fe Sleeper Pine Grove - Page 8

**Vermin_King** · #71 09-06-2020, 02:45 PM

Outstanding work, sir. I am sure that having to get that large piece to fit everywhere would have scared me into breaking it up, but you handled it extremely well

**romanmodels** · #72 09-06-2020, 02:59 PM

good work Erik

**sgoti** · #73 09-06-2020, 09:11 PM

Here is what jumped out at me:

1) The skirting at the ends of the car is incorrect.

I reference this photo of PINE GROVE from the very early days of Amtrak (meaning after the Santa Fe was no longer operating passenger trains):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/23267954695

As the photo caption states, the sleepers were delivered without skirts except for the very ends of the car, but some did have skirting added between the trucks (bogies).

I have not seen a photo of a passenger car with the skirting as designed on the model. It would be rather unusual to have skirting between the trucks (where it would interfere with easy access to appliances and equipment under the car) and absent from the very ends.

2) The rendering of the fluting (or corrugations) below the windows is also incorrect.

The profile of Budd corrugations is a series of peaks and shallow, curving valleys similar to what you would get if the surface of a Greek column were unrolled and oriented horizontally.

This is a photo of the model from your build: Model photo

This is a prototype photo of a Budd round-end observation car: Babbling Brook photo

In the photo of the Babbling Brook, you can see the contour of the corrugations at the edges of the tail sign. Notice how the contour translates into shading: Peak, valley, peak, valley, etc. The shading on the model "reads" as flat, valley, peak, flat, valley, peak, etc.

Now, before anyone cries "who cares?", this is the passenger car equivalent of Ford vs Chevy vs Chrysler details. Budd-built passenger cars had a distinctive styling to them that was a direct result of their manufacturing process: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_welding. On Budd cars, the corrugations were as much structural as decorative. AC&F and P-S had a different profile for their corrugations, which were decorative only.

**dutchbuilt** · #74 09-07-2020, 02:54 AM

Corrugation:I will look at that in short time and correct it. I added the skirts but had doubts, but it looked nice. I will remove them because of the technical reasons you convincingly showed me.

greetings designer Cor

**Erik Zwaan** · #75 09-07-2020, 04:05 AM

Thank you David and Vermin_King for your kind words.

Glenn, Cor: I'll see what still can be done and corrected regarding the skirts. But I'm a bit confused here. The picture you refer to Glenn clearly shows a, let's call it, center skirt in between the trucks, and at both ends of the sleeper. However, I have also seen pictures of the (former) Pine Grove and/or its siblings without center skirt (in fact any skirts at all), fully exposing the underneath equipment.

I'll be happy to make modifications within the limits of what's still possible at this point, if this increases the accuracy of the model (I'm sure Petestein would disagree

), provided Cor also modifies the design accordingly. It's after all a test-build that should follow the intentions of the designer.

I wonder if the skirts were just simply removed at some point in time during the lifetime of a coach. Understandably it would be more convenient to access the equipment underneath, rather than the perhaps little aerodynamic advantage of maintaining the skirts (adding to the stream line).

I herewith include some pictures to clarify my point.

Regarding the corrugation, I have tried to simulate the peak and valley effect by cutting out the lighter strips and gluing them onto the skins (a painstaking job....), as they represent the peaks. Unfortunately this effect is difficult to see on the pictures.

Regards,
Erik

**ennder** · #76 09-07-2020, 08:40 AM

I'm loving this build.

If I may make a suggestion, Maybe the designer could include both a skirted and non-skirted version in the final model, so that the builder can choose which one they want to build.

wes

**sgoti** · #77 09-07-2020, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Zwaan

Glenn, Cor: I'll see what still can be done and corrected regarding the skirts. But I'm a bit confused here. The picture you refer to Glenn clearly shows a, let's call it, center skirt in between the trucks, and at both ends of the sleeper. However, I have also seen pictures of the (former) Pine Grove and/or its siblings without center skirt (in fact any skirts at all), fully exposing the underneath equipment.

Keep this in mind: The model is intended to be as the sleeper originally appeared, appropriate with the ATSF F7.

The F7, as modeled is from the time when the ATSF ran their own passenger trains and took extreme pride in them.

Your first picture is from the Ozark Mountain Railcar site when the car was recently offered for sale. The second picture was from three years after the ATSF joined Amtrak. Amtrak owned, but still very much in appearance as it was during its ATSF days.

Believe it or not, there are nearly over 45 years between the two photos. 45 years of changes, including the conversion from steam heating and A/C to Head-End Power (HEP, 480v ac electric power).

During this time, but after its time on the Santa Fe, the car apparently lost its skirting.

Unfortunately, this is one of the hazards of finding a photo on the internet and trying to use it for reference without knowing its details or the subject's full history.

In short, the Ozark Mountain photo is incorrect with regard to the underbody detailing for the period the car is intended for.

Regarding the corrugations: There is a smaller, less concave single corrugation at the belt rail below the windows. That is the one place the "flat" I mentioned would be appropriate. You can see this in the Babbling Brook Photo.

Also, the model has six valleys, the prototype should have seven. This jumped out when I notices the top of the name plate seemed to "float" over one of the valleys. The name plate on the prototype should reach the peaks on the top and bottom.

**sgoti** · #78 09-07-2020, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ennder

I'm loving this build.

If I may make a suggestion, Maybe the designer could include both a skirted and non-skirted version in the final model, so that the builder can choose which one they want to build.

wes

Actually, I would suggest a skirted version, and the builder could trim them off if a non-skirted version were desired.

(But then, you're left with trying to accurately depict all the exposed underbody details)

**Erik Zwaan** · #79 09-08-2020, 12:50 AM

Thanks Glenn, I will leave the center skirt and make some other modifications, using the "Amtrak picture" as reference. Number of corrugations can't be changed anymore in the test-build. I understood from the designer he has made a few changes as well.

Regards,
Erik

**Kevin WS** · #80 09-08-2020, 04:42 AM

Looming great Eric. Well done on the sides.

With respect to the skirting, it is best to remember that real things do vary from time to time. Nothing is ever "book" or "spec" perfect in real life. Variability is not serious!

More important is the "feel" a model conveys of the real thing. And Cor is doing this very well!