Ethics of kit conversions

[Maltedfalcon]

Originally Posted by cdavenport

Sorry; every one of you are dead wrong. There are no copyright or ethical issues to deal with. In fact, if you make a modification or, as we call it in the plastics world, an "after market part," you are under no legal obligation or threat whatever to obtain permission from the originator of the kit..

Well technically you can make add-ons, because they are "generic" and could be added to any similar scale model of the subject.

However derivatives are covered by copyright. Meaning if you base a model or model part on somebody elses copyrighted work (rather then modeling from the original) and you market it without permission that would be illegal.

One blatent example I have found of this is: You can order the blueprints of the Wright Flyer from the Smithsonian institution. You can use them to make a model of the Wright Flyer. - However if you use them to make a model to sell or distribute, the smithsonian will prosecute you.

[Zathros]

Originally Posted by Maltedfalcon

Well technically you can make add-ons, because they are "generic" and could be added to any similar scale model of the subject.

However derivatives are covered by copyright. Meaning if you base a model or model part on somebody elses copyrighted work (rather then modeling from the original) and you market it without permission that would be illegal.

One blatent example I have found of this is: You can order the blueprints of the Wright Flyer from the Smithsonian institution. You can use them to make a model of the Wright Flyer. - However if you use them to make a model to sell or distribute, the smithsonian will prosecute you.

You can make a Wright Flyer from sources of than the Smithsonian's prints, and there isn't a thing they could do about it. They would have to prove to a Judge that you had their prints, and even then, the Smithsonian could be risking a lot of Federal Funding. If they are asking $861.5 million dollars from the American Taxpayer, I find it much to think that they would sue anyone for making something who's patent ran out a long time ago. I don't agree with your conclusion either, I would like to see where that came from, and even then, just because someone wrote it doesn't mean it is right. There are a lot of Wright Flyer models out there for sale. The reason all these companies can make models of our present day Fighters/Helicopters, etc., is because of the legal question of taxpayer rights, and being doubly taxed for something we already paid tax on, the original craft! Maybe private corporations should pay, but, we will end up paying anything they get taxed on, so, double taxation.

However, calling anyone's work on this forum, or any other, "their design", is a bit much. I have only seen 1 paper model recently, that was an "original design", and that was by Dented Rick. Everything else here is derivative work. If I want to make a one piece Hull, or, an interior for someone elses's interpretation of their airplane model, there is nothing anyone could do about that. The forum may have their own private preferences, but there is no legal issue whatsoever. The more accurate the interpretation, then, logically, the more similar they will be, and then the more interchangeable the parts will become, scale notwithstanding.

[cdavenport]

Actually, the real bugaboo is licensing rights. You put the Ford/Boeing/Chevy, et al, logo on a model and you better have the license to do so. Paper modeling is so small on the radar, I doubt any company would prosecute or issue a cease and desist....but they could if they wanted.

The Zorn reprint of the Ford Trimotor is likely not covered because the model was copyrighted before the companies started requiring licensing rights.

In the plastic model world, this is one of the reasons we see such a dearth of new models based on commercial vehicles. The licensing rights gouge the profits!


Folks, the real issue here is whether we, as modelers, have the right to modify a commercially available kit, legally, morally, ethically, according to the laws of Islam, Vishnu, and the god Apollo....and sell that modification.

The answer is YES!

GPM has reprinted the 1/33 scale B-52, but it's in its original colors. If I want to make a repaint so that it fits the frame of the GPM B-52, I can do so and sell it without any legal/ethical ramifications. If I want to design a completely new kit that builds exactly like the GPM kit, I can do so. In fact, I wish someone would do so because the GPM kit has some annoying profile errors.

Case closed.

[Zathros]

Originally Posted by cdavenport

Actually, the real bugaboo is licensing rights. You put the Ford/Boeing/Chevy, et al, logo on a model and you better have the license to do so. Paper modeling is so small on the radar, I doubt any company would prosecute or issue a cease and desist....but they could if they wanted.

The Zorn reprint of the Ford Trimotor is likely not covered because the model was copyrighted before the companies started requiring licensing rights.

In the plastic model world, this is one of the reasons we see such a dearth of new models based on commercial vehicles. The licensing rights gouge the profits!


Folks, the real issue here is whether we, as modelers, have the right to modify a commercially available kit, legally, morally, ethically, according to the laws of Islam, Vishnu, and the god Apollo....and sell that modification.

The answer is YES!

GPM has reprinted the 1/33 scale B-52, but it's in its original colors. If I want to make a repaint so that it fits the frame of the GPM B-52, I can do so and sell it without any legal/ethical ramifications. If I want to design a completely new kit that builds exactly like the GPM kit, I can do so. In fact, I wish someone would do so because the GPM kit has some annoying profile errors.

Case closed.

Well, I just want you to know that for what it's worth, I am in complete agreement with you. I find a lot of this whole issue presumptuous, has been beat to death, and some people's demand for some pretty specific "preferences' for work they have copied, preposterous.

[goodduck]

so....... cdavenport, base on your opinion and your interpretations of the copyright law. I can then go take airdave C-130 gunship kit that I repainted and sell it commercially? Or, just give it away to anyone for free?

Hey, airdave, it is cool with you I go sell or give away my repaint of your c-130? And how about I selling your c-130 with six blade propeller mod, that's cool with you too right? .......... well maybe be not give away free, I'll sell it. I put too much work repaint and mod your model to give away free. Anyway, just want to give you a head up airdave, maybe you would like to buy my repaint and mod. Yes, I will give you a discount, airdave. After all, I am working off your kit. Oh, airdave, can you make a c-17 too so I can repaint and sell it too, thanks. And whoever did the Piaggio Avanti, Is it cool with you too I go sell my repaint of your Piaggio Avanti? How about you, cdavenport? You designed any models I can repaint, mod and sell?

Oh, look at the time, I got a ton of free models I need to go download and repaint, and put them up for sell. Thanks to you guys interpretations, it open up a whole new opportunity for me. So, please excuse me, I got to go, I going to be very busy.

[SJPONeill]

Nope - you can only sell those modification parts that you have made yourself...that might not have come through above as clearly is it should have done...so you can sell yo recolour skin but NOT the rest of the model...

[cdavenport]

Originally Posted by SJPONeill

Nope - you can only sell those modification parts that you have made yourself...that might not have come through above as clearly is it should have done...so you can sell yo recolour skin but NOT the rest of the model...

Thanks SJPO! That's the whole argument in a nutshell. So, Goodduck, have a ball! I really wish I had your skill/knowledge to do the repaints digitally. As it is, I have to build the model and paint it by hand to get something different....exactly the reason I moved to paper models; I'm tired of painting!

[goodduck]

..... let me see, just the part that repainted, .......... That's still everything, down to the front conver, actually, I have not repaint the cover yet, but I will now. I will repaint the cover pink, and the instructions too. and whatever airdave sell his c-130 for, I will sell my repaint ..... 3 bucks less. I'll take per order now, thank you.

[goodduck]

ok, enough of this silliness, is like I really will sell airdave or anyone else repaints. If "I" didn't made the part out of nothing but take someone else model to mod or repaint, then that is not mine. I am in fact be profiting off somebody else labor. This is my interpretations.

[Zathros]

Originally Posted by goodduck

ok, enough of this silliness, is like I really will sell airdave or anyone else repaints. If "I" didn't made the part out of nothing but take someone else model to mod or repaint, then that is not mine. I am in fact be profiting off somebody else labor. This is my interpretations.

That is the nature of this whole Hobby. All these jets and boats and planes, nobody who designed the originals gets any money, so, it is profiting off of someone else's labor, and in that respect, it is the America, and most Capitalists societies way. That is why it is not illegal! None of the parts are made ut of nothing, they are made from studying the pictures of the originals. This discussions always end up the same way. If no one has the right to make the same model as someone else, then no on e has the right to make the model. The closer you get, and adhere to the standards used, the more similar the models will look, until, they become indistinguishable. One thing that is unique is what lies underneath, and the methodology used. Your box method for connecting the formers is exactly what I did 4 years ago on the first ESKA model I interpreted. It was nothing like the original ESKA model. That was far before I met you (I did these back in 2007) and I had never seen anyone do that before. Like minds produce like results.