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  #11  
Old 08-01-2022, 02:20 PM
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Don Boose Don Boose is offline
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Lou - I have printed out the Coral Sea game and hope soon to try playing it with USAWC colleague and long-time friend Jim DI Crocco (finishing up dissertation on Philippine Army 1941-42 at Leeds University and well known to Doug). We may have some questions.

I also intend tonight to read the Battle of the Eastern Solomons section of John B. Lundstrom's Black Shoe Carrier Admiral: Frank Jack Fletcher at Coral Sea, Midway, and Guadalcanal (Annapolis: Naval Institute Press, 2006, pp. 426-465), which has been on my shelf since it was published, but which I still have not read, although I have dipped into it from time to time when researching some aspect of the early Pacific War (so many books; so little time).

Incidentally, among the books I read while Lil was sick (in addition finally to finishing Rebecca West's Black Lamb and Grey Falcon and the Hone and Melhorn books), was Peter J. Dean, MacArthur's Coalition: US and Australian Military Operations in the Southwest Pacific Area, 1942-1945 (Lawrence: University of Kansas Press, 2018), which touches on the operations of Crace's (later, Crutchley's) Task Force 44 at Coral Sea.

Doug - Apologies for the diversion from your Shiratsuyu thread, but I assumed you wouldn't object to this seminar discussion.

Don

Last edited by Don Boose; 08-01-2022 at 02:31 PM.
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  #12  
Old 08-02-2022, 07:30 AM
georgerutherford1861 georgerutherford1861 is offline
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I do not mind the discussion at all, it's not diversion it's context!

Lou, the turrets turn on cut-off toothpicks. I use a pin to make the initial hole in the turret base, then up two sizes of mini-drills to make it not too traumatic on the paper and tear up the base, if that makes sense. The torpedo launchers were a little more challenging, I ended up just gluing them to my accordion torpedo tubes (drilling a hole through them would have created paper carnage). It also requires cutting part of the longitudinal (did I use the right term there?) skeleton to allow the tootpicks to go down into the body of the ship. These turned out better than the Hiei's turrets did.

Thank you for the reading suggestions Don, more books to add to the list. I did get Volume 5 of the Claringbould/Ingman South Pacific Air War series, excellent as always. I need to pick up a few more of Claringbould's aircraft-specific profile books, am wavering at the moment over Zero versus Corsair. Decisions, decisions.

Thanks as always for looking and commenting, and tell Jim hello.

Doug
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  #13  
Old 11-30-2022, 06:48 AM
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LouCoatney LouCoatney is offline
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2-D (deck plan) "paper models"

I've done Coral Sea, an even simpler Postcard Midway and am now working on Postcard Solomons CVs about the Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz, Don and Doug. My 2-D ship icons I do pixel by pixel are 2-D paper models themselves so ...


Note how cross-decked scrambled Enterprise's post-Midway squadron( number)s were.
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1/700 Lou Coatney designed Shiratsuyu destroyer-postguadcvbatsx.jpg   1/700 Lou Coatney designed Shiratsuyu destroyer-postsolcvsstandups.jpg  
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  #14  
Old 12-05-2022, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgerutherford1861 View Post
Final pictures
Very nice. Excuse my ignorance, but are these models posted by Lou somewhere?
Thank you.
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  #15  
Old 12-05-2022, 09:38 AM
georgerutherford1861 georgerutherford1861 is offline
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Here’s a link to Lou’s page with the cardstock models. From there you can also get to all of Lou’s free wargames.

Free Cardstock Paper Model World War 2/II Warships

Lou, thanks for the new game. I have to find more time to try them out. Still working on my second Shiratsuyu, fall was busier than I’d like.

Doug
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  #16  
Old 12-05-2022, 08:46 PM
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LouCoatney LouCoatney is offline
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Coral Sea ship recognition, Rigby's paper Naval Craft, and Hiei

Don, if you guys are ARMY War College, you may find my new Postcard Stalingrad (city battle) of interest. Very fast - about an hour - but REALLY thought-demanding.

I forget: What excuse did our USAAC/USAAF give for high-altitude-bombing Crace's US/Aus task force by mistake? (BIG push in USAAF for ship recognition after that. )

So why wasn't there a big push for ship recognition PAPER MODELS before and during the war. There was Wallis Rigby's 1941 Naval Craft - I've got it - with an excellent North Carolina, the Kriegsmarine Graf Zeppelin for a carrier!, a very crude cruiser and likewise destroyer model, an excellent PT boat, and various auxiliaries and landing craft, but why didn't anybody do USN and IJN (or RN, KM, and RM) paper model task force sets then??

(There was also a VERY crude New Mexico class like battleship and generic carrier published, but ....)

Well, here also is crippled Hiei being very accurately high-altitude-bombed by B-17s (I think) the morning after 1st Guadalcanal. Note the huge oil slick in the lower left.
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  #17  
Old 12-05-2022, 09:54 PM
Foute Man Foute Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LouCoatney View Post
Don, if you guys are ARMY War College, you may find my new Postcard Stalingrad (city battle) of interest. Very fast - about an hour - but REALLY thought-demanding.

I forget: What excuse did our USAAC/USAAF give for high-altitude-bombing Crace's US/Aus task force by mistake? (BIG push in USAAF for ship recognition after that. )

So why wasn't there a big push for ship recognition PAPER MODELS before and during the war. There was Wallis Rigby's 1941 Naval Craft - I've got it - with an excellent North Carolina, the Kriegsmarine Graf Zeppelin for a carrier!, a very crude cruiser and likewise destroyer model, an excellent PT boat, and various auxiliaries and landing craft, but why didn't anybody do USN and IJN (or RN, KM, and RM) paper model task force sets then??

(There was also a VERY crude New Mexico class like battleship and generic carrier published, but ....)

Well, here also is crippled Hiei being very accurately high-altitude-bombed by B-17s (I think) the morning after 1st Guadalcanal. Note the huge oil slick in the lower left.
You've never seen these drawings????? This is an official ONI publication. Have not found such books for Japanese and/or Italian navy, but I know for sure model drawings for Japanese vessels were distributed among the youth of the US.

Hi-res scans of these drawings in pdf format can be downloaded here





I think wood and metal were the materials of choice......

PS: IJN Nagato



Hi-res scan available here
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  #18  
Old 12-06-2022, 09:47 AM
georgerutherford1861 georgerutherford1861 is offline
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Foute Man,

Hello. Lou’s website has many of the ONI drawings on them. Office of Naval Intelligence Ship Drawings and Photos

Not to speak for him, but Lou may have been referring to a lack of period paper models, as opposed to plans a person could make models from.

Doug
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  #19  
Old 12-07-2022, 05:04 AM
Foute Man Foute Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgerutherford1861 View Post
Foute Man,
Hello. Lou’s website has many of the ONI drawings on them. Office of Naval Intelligence Ship Drawings and Photos
Not to speak for him, but Lou may have been referring to a lack of period paper models, as opposed to plans a person could make models from.
Doug
I was only trying to say that the US military (US Navy) mobilized the public to create those models to be used in pilot training. They printed and distributed a lot of plans for wooden models (and ordered metal models from various toy companies). Click on this link for those files
Paper or cardboard wasn't the material of choice by the US for recognition models.
I know the Germans used paper/cardboard models to train soldiers to recognize various vehicles (friendly or foe). Some of those models circulate on the internet

But sorry for this reply, i should stick with the subject, and that's your model

Last edited by Foute Man; 12-07-2022 at 05:22 AM.
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  #20  
Old 12-11-2022, 05:26 AM
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LouCoatney LouCoatney is offline
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Problems with (wartime) wooden and metal ID models

I have seen the Do It Yourself (DIY) plans issued by the U.S. Navy for members of the public to make their own ID models for the Navy, FM, but there were problems with them.


When people build wooden models even according to a plan there are often great differences in the size and shape of things supposed to be identical, like gun turrets.


By contrast - thanks to cut-and-paste during doing the plans - my paper model gun turrets are dead solid perfect(ly) identical right down to the last pixel (which you can often see).
The heavy paper models would have been cheaper to produce and would have saved having to pain them.
Being so light, they travel extremely well and are surprisingly tough and repairable.
And the preservation/water-proffing paper varnishes back then were adequate.



In 1968, GI Lou bought a beautiful assembled and painted Delphin 1:1250 Richelieu in my base town Hanau am Main and I later picked up another on eBay during my 20 years back in Illinois after Alaska. When I shipped them over here to Norway, I packed them in a box with some other metal models - all 2-sided taped and tied-string-bound to the floor of the strong cardboard box.
They and a couple of their shipmates somehow got loose and destroyed each other.
Plastic are lighter and safer - and at one time Wiking had an extensive line of WW2 1:1250 plastic ships (omitting the Japanese entirely, though) - and paper models even moreso.
One day, to my SHOCK AND MORAL TERROR, I was holding my newly designed and built (and painted) USS Macomb DD-458 (with Val kamikaze which significantly damaged it off Okinawa, designed by my son Robert) and DROPPED IT all the way to the floor.
It sort of floated down, and no injury whatsoever.


For designing, I do find the DIY Navy model ship plans useful for understanding superstructure and and the like shapes, though.
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