David B's offer of referenece material and long wish list.

[jleslie48]

Dave B has just sent me 60mb of diagrams and pictures as a teaser to his library of very unusual "could of been" spacecraft from the Soviet Union, ESA, and the United states.

He is interested in getting some of them designed or learning how to design himself. He is also offering access to his library of documents.

These include:

the AN-225,
Soviet MAKS Spaceplane,
moon lab modules,
a nine F1 Saturn V space station launcher,
plus many, many more.

heres the teaser link:

http://jleslie48.com/db_wishlist/acs.html

and in it is his email if you would like to contact him.

[WeeVikes]

Wow.

That's an impressive collection of documentation.

His question about copywrite violations is an intersting one. Would one be violating a copywrite distributing a document that was generated via a US Governemt contract? It wouldn't seem like it, but sometimes propreitary data may make its way into such things. I'm thinking that even if the person he bought the files from put in the "blood, sweat, and tears" to scan publicly available, but difficult to find documents, maybe not. Just because documents are hard to find doesn't necessarily mean they aren't public property. But I genuiniely have no idea. Does the person who collected the data have a right to be paid for their collection efforts? I could see that, too. Very interesting questions.

Anyone have any expereince in these matters?


Mike

[airdave]

David Brown appears to have all the best intentions
and I'm not judging him or his intentions personally.

Collecting reference images and files on the Internet has become a common practice.
I will not comment on the legalities of "saving" and keeping these files.

But the idea of redistributing the images or data is another issue.
Regardless of how you acquired the files, whether you had permission or not,
whether you paid for them or not...this does not give you the right to redistribute the files to other parties, in your own method and for your own purposes.

Many of the images in this "package" appear to have copyrights and information referencing the original owners or sources for the information.
I would say this is a good thing...it helps lessen the question of deliberate misuse.
But not all do...

If it were one image, this might not be such a big issue...
but sharing a very large file of internet collected data, images, etc is a much bigger issue.

Even Mr Brown himself questions the legality of collecting and then redistributing this info.

I have no idea if any individual items in this collection are properly copyrighted or illegally obtained
...but I would hazard a guess that most, if not all,
of the data is redistributed without the proper legal permissions.

I would therefore be reluctant to support or advertise the distribution of this package of images, etc.

[airdave]

Collecting reference images and files on the Internet has become a common practice.
I will not comment on the legalities of "saving" and keeping these files.

But the idea of redistributing the images or data is another issue.
Regardless of how you acquired the files, whether you had permission or not,
whether you paid for them or not...this does not give you the right to redistribute the files to other parties, in your own method and for your own purposes.

Many of the images in this "package" appear to have copyrights and information referencing the original owners or sources for the information.
I would say this is a good thing...it helps lessen the question of deliberate misuse.
But not all do...

If it were one image, this might not be such a big issue...
but sharing a very large file of internet collected data, images, etc is a much bigger issue.

Even the distributor questions the legality of collecting and then redistributing this info.

I have no idea if any individual items in this collection are copyrighted or illegally obtained
...I would hazard a guess that most, if not all,
of the data is redistributed without the proper legal permissions.

I would therefore be reluctant to publicly support or advertise the distribution of this package of images, etc.

[Paper Kosmonaut]

Ow! That little MAKS shuttle always hurts my eyeballs... That's such an ugly little bugger. I'd love to build one, though. Funny the US also had an almost identical idea. With a V-tailed 747. Did they for once steal it from the Russkies?

The biggest issue with making a model of that MAKS stack is all the conical shapes. That tank is one big non-symmetrical shaped bulge and the nose of MAKS itself is also quite special.
The Saturn derivatives look quite easy to me, actually. It's just a question of getting the scale right. Extending the SIC is no problem and that one-and-a-half stage version is a little tricky with the engines but doable.
Thing is I still am not really up to really designing things...

[airdave]

sorry for that double post earlier...just trying to get my point across i guess? lol

[Paper Kosmonaut]

The thing is, though, that Dave Brown speaks about all those purchased documents as if most of the people in the modelers world would not be aware of this. Up-Ship is quite well known, IMHO, although I never have bought blueprints from them.
And, further, if Dave is in the know about Leo Cherkashyn, Ton Noteboom and Greelt Peterusma (who seems to have retired from modeling entirely), why would he not contact them directly? Especially Ton and Leo are quite well approachable - and they have their own website.
And thirdly, Why, if he's such a keen modeler - with a wish list, why is he not here or with the neighbours?
Then he would have known that people like Yogi design their models with Excel (of all apps!) and that it works fine!
I also think it's a bit strange to assume Jonathan has never heard or seen the Ralph Currell models. The paper space model global village isn't that big.
just some thoughts...

--EDIT--
Wouldn't it have been easier to just tell and link to some (free available) documents? Isn't it a bit silly to think people in these communities never have heard about MAKS and the single stage to orbit S1C?

[jleslie48]

Originally Posted by Paper Kosmonaut

The thing is, though, that Dave Brown speaks about all those purchased documents as if most of the people in the modelers world would not be aware of this. Up-Ship is quite well known, IMHO, although I never have bought blueprints from them.
And, further, if Dave is in the know about Leo Cherkashyn, Ton Noteboom and Greelt Peterusma (who seems to have retired from modeling entirely), why would he not contact them directly? Especially Ton and Leo are quite well approachable - and they have their own website.
And thirdly, Why, if he's such a keen modeler - with a wish list, why is he not here or with the neighbours?
Then he would have known that people like Yogi design their models with Excel (of all apps!) and that it works fine!
I also think it's a bit strange to assume Jonathan has never heard or seen the Ralph Currell models. The paper space model global village isn't that big.
just some thoughts...

--EDIT--
Wouldn't it have been easier to just tell and link to some (free available) documents? Isn't it a bit silly to think people in these communities never have heard about MAKS and the single stage to orbit S1C?

to answer some of these questions:

1) he tried to contact leo he got no repsonse. I cut that part out of the "wish list" as it was not relevant.
2) I'm not sure he knows about the paper modeling community and this forum all that well, I have not invited him yet, I've only just heard from him this past saturday.
3) Not sure what you mean about ralph currell, As far as assuming I have not heard of RC, I know I always assume that someone has not heard of xyz and list it no matter what as well. this is not a surprise to me that he does the same thing.

[Paper Kosmonaut]

Oh well, perhaps I assume too much. (-:
It's all just about the hassle he's going through, sending you all these heavy files and stuff while he also could have found help and designers by just joining a forum, which are very easy to find. Easier than all those obscure designs he came up with, I would say.
It's just a bit weird in my opinion (and being used to do research a lot) that someone is not aware of these forums. The guy sounds like a well-educated fellow.

(& yeah, Leo is not so responsive at his site or to his PM's here, you're right about that too.)

Now... Who's gonna design that pretty little ugly duckling called MAKS?

[goodduck]

Originally Posted by jleslie48

WOW! I want one of that model! WOW!